Is anyone working on a way to disable anti-ailising?

[ChronicHedgehog]

AA on sub 1080p content only serves to degrade the visuals, IMO. Both the N64 and Wii have homebrew to disable various blur effects to great effect. Are there grumblings of anything similar for Xbox?

[prtscn]

get component cables

flicker filter can be turned off, but with modded console.

 

[Bowlsnapper]

1 hour ago, prtscn said:

get component cables

flicker filter can be turned off, but with modded console.

 

What is this flicker filter I keep hearing about. The only one I know of is in XBMC... You're saying there's a console-wide flicker filter?

[Bowlsnapper]

4 hours ago, ChronicHedgehog said:

AA on sub 1080p content only serves to degrade the visuals, IMO. Both the N64 and Wii have homebrew to disable various blur effects to great effect. Are there grumblings of anything similar for Xbox?

Are you saying you want to increase performance because AA pretty much increases resolution to smooth edges? What content are you referring to that would benefit from it?

[prtscn]

43 minutes ago, Bowlsnapper said:

Are you saying you want to increase performance because AA pretty much increases resolution to smooth edges? What content are you referring to that would benefit from it?

plebs who use interlaced video.

Component i was refering 480p. unlike wii for some reason, xbox in 480p does not use flicker filter.

[Bowlsnapper]

12 minutes ago, prtscn said:

plebs who use interlaced video.

Component i was refering 480p. unlike wii for some reason, xbox in 480p does not use flicker filter.

Plebians... I have to use it for my CRTs component input, so yes, I'm a plebian. lol

So the flicker filter is basically scaling the image and alternating lines as the TV alternates through cycles, itself... That's downscaling the image inadvertently, isn't it?

[prtscn]

4 minutes ago, Bowlsnapper said:

Plebians... I have to use it for my CRTs component input, so yes, I'm a plebian. lol

So the flicker filter is basically scaling the image and alternating lines as the TV alternates through cycles, itself... That's downscaling the image inadvertently, isn't it?

EDTV CRTS does support 480p, not sure if all modesl, most of the time its written on component imput "480i/480p".

[Bowlsnapper]

5 minutes ago, prtscn said:

EDTV CRTS does support 480p, not sure if all modesl, most of the time its written on component imput "480i/480p".

Yes, Certain CRTs accept digital signals. However, many people who use CRTs do not favor using them if they can avoid it because of the processing of the digital signal, which introduces lag. It's a great signal, but some people are sensetive to the input processing time. I have all interlaced CRTs at the moment, but I do have a 36 inch trrinitron that accepts a 480P signal in storage.

[prtscn]

6 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said:

Yes, Certain CRTs accept digital signals. However, many people who use CRTs do not favor using them if they can avoid it because of the processing of the digital signal, which introduces lag. It's a great signal, but some people are sensetive to the input processing time. I have all interlaced CRTs at the moment, but I do have a 36 inch trrinitron that accepts a 480P signal in storage.

EDTV upscales 240p, 480i to 480p. 480p input signal has no digital conversions. Of course analog 480i tv will be fastest, since its analog. European 100Hz are the reason maybe for this, it double input lag, because it display same image two times to achieve 100Hz.

So 480p is the way to go.

[Bowlsnapper]

5 minutes ago, prtscn said:

EDTV upscales 240p, 480i to 480p. 480p input signal has no digital conversions. Of course analog 480i tv will be fastest, since its analog. European 100Hz are the reason maybe for this, it double input lag, because it display same image two times to achieve 100Hz.

So 480p is the way to go.

Okay, if this is true then it's good to know. I would be disappointed if there were lag on 480p. My current Slimfit is only 480i, but the one I have in storage takes 1080i HDMI input!... Scaled to 480 I wouldn't doubt due to the size of the shadowmask/phosphor lines, but I wonder how that would look and what the lag would be like?... I gotta find out!

Storage Slimfit also has an ATSC digital tuner... Wtf? I've never even heard of that on a CRT. Lol

[prtscn]

6 minutes ago, Bowlsnapper said:

Okay, if this is true then it's good to know. I would be disappointed if there were lag on 480p. My current Slimfit is only 480i, but the one I have in storage takes 1080i HDMI input!... Scaled to 480 I wouldn't doubt due to the size of the shadowmask/phosphor lines, but I wonder how that would look and what the lag would be like?... I gotta find out!

Storage Slimfit also has an ATSC digital tuner... Wtf? I've never even heard of that on a CRT. Lol

high scan 1080i CRTS upscale image to 1080i for all inputs.  These TVs are can of worms.

[Bowlsnapper]

Just now, prtscn said:

high scan 1080i CRTS upscale image to 1080i for all inputs.  These TVs are can of worms.

It needs a recap. I can see the deflection is problematic. That's why it's in storage. I gotta try that 1080 though. I'll take your word for it!

[ChronicHedgehog]

15 hours ago, prtscn said:

get component cables

flicker filter can be turned off, but with modded console.

 

I have Monster Component cables that and run games at 480p through upscalers, so the flicker filter isn’t an issue. Good to know it can be disabled.

 

14 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said:

Are you saying you want to increase performance because AA pretty much increases resolution to smooth edges? What content are you referring to that would benefit from it?

Sub 1080p images (960p is probably okay) don’t provide enough data for effective anti ailising, all it does is soften and smear the image. If it’s a choice between jaggies and Vaseline, I’ll chose jaggies every time. I read years ago that someone removed the anti ailising from the original Xbox emulator on 360 but never released it publicly.

Check out what been done with Wii 

And N64
 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by ChronicHedgehog

[Bowlsnapper]

12 hours ago, ChronicHedgehog said:

I have Monster Component cables that and run games at 480p through upscalers, so the flicker filter isn’t an issue. Good to know it can be disabled.

 

Sub 1080p images (960p is probably okay) don’t provide enough data for effective anti ailising, all it does is soften and smear the image. If it’s a choice between jaggies and Vaseline, I’ll chose jaggies every time. I read years ago that someone removed the anti ailising from the original Xbox emulator on 360 but never released it publicly.

Check out what been done with Wii 

And N64
 

 

The green monster cables that I have hooked up to my X3/JVC rig have a built in scaler?

[ChronicHedgehog]

No, I was informing prtscn that I’m already using 480p component with external video scalers, so deflicker doesn’t apply for my use case.

[Bowlsnapper]

4 hours ago, ChronicHedgehog said:

No, I was informing prtscn that I’m already using 480p component with external video scalers, so deflicker doesn’t apply for my use case.

Oh... Duh...

[ChronicHedgehog]

So, I assumed the general softness was due to AA, but I found this over at shmups and now I’m not sure if it’s whatever’s happening here or a combination of both. The image appears to oversharpened to the point where it creates so much ringing around the edges it actually softens the image.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=70359

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by ChronicHedgehog

[prtscn]

1 hour ago, ChronicHedgehog said:

So, I assumed the general softness was due to AA, but I found this over at shmups and now I’m not sure if it’s whatever’s happening here or a combination of both. The image appears to oversharpened to the point where it creates so much ringing around the edges it actually softens the image.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=70359

 

 

Xbox RGB scart is compressed signal, possibly this is why we see ringing. Its not true RAW rgb signal. There is no AA. Could be flicker filter turned on, there are 5 levels of it.

This was a talk point for ages. I'm not that smart so i give a link for more info.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/xbox-flicker-filter-and-why-the-picture-is-soft-from-rgb-scart.196390/

 

I seen you WII videos, so with usbloader component output can be as good as gamecube?? Want to play RE4, because updated releases have missing effects like depth of field, makes game look flat.

Edited July 8, 2023 by prtscn

[ChronicHedgehog]

That image is through component, and mirrors what I see in my component set up. The author tried to get RGB SCART to work to see if there was any improvement, but his system isn’t compatible.

i haven’t set up my Wii with the latest GX Loader and Nintendon’t yet, so I can’t speak from experience, but if I recall correctly, the image quality should be identical to GameCube.

[Bowlsnapper]

Why the hell would Microsoft allow for such shitty SCART? I'm honestly very let down...

[ChronicHedgehog]

The XBOXHD+ has the ability to output games in native resolution when 480p is enabled, bypassing internal scaling! Quite a difference.

 

[Bowlsnapper]

6 hours ago, ChronicHedgehog said:

The XBOXHD+ has the ability to output games in native resolution when 480p is enabled, bypassing internal scaling! Quite a difference.

 

She's hot. The Retrotink makes her hotter and more well defined.

[ChronicHedgehog]

I know you’re making a joke, but it’s the prescale render that’s responsible for the image quality. The internal scaling process and whatever processing the Xbox does (AA, sharpening) is disabled. I hope someone can implement this into a custom BIOS for people who use component.

[coldasijs]

22 hours ago, ChronicHedgehog said:

The XBOXHD+ has the ability to output games in native resolution when 480p is enabled, bypassing internal scaling! Quite a difference.

 

I wonder how this guy did this. Retrotink doesn’t accept hdmi as an input. I have a retrotink 5x (considering getting the 4k after watching Bob’s stream @ retrorgb).

anyway I’m not convinced this is because of some AA filtering from XBOX. The XBOX itself doesn’t scale, it’s the XBOXHD that does the work. It outputs 1080p, or at least that is what I suspect. Of course it’s the 144 (or 288 not sure what twitter is using nowadays, and yes I refuse to call that platform it’s ridiculous one letter name). 1080p upscaling to 1440p always gives sharpness issues. It’s 1.333x scaling. 480p to 1440p is just simple 3x scaling. So it has to do extrapolation, so making up data  .
 

I saw similar issues when playing with my PS4 on my 1440p monitor, it wasn’t as playing on my 1080p TV. I really started to notice the difference after hooking up my PS5 to the same monitor, the monitor can also downscale 4k to 2k. The sharpness difference was night and day.

 

[ChronicHedgehog]

The XBOXHD+ outputs 480p and 720p. Wobbling Pixels is using 480p output with “Prescale” (Xbox internal scaling) off. Transcoding HDMI to component is trivial. The Xbox clearly uses internal scaling at times or the HD+ wouldn’t be able to disable it in the first place. Whatever processing is happening during the internal scaling process is eliminated, resolving my complaints about image quality. The various photos speak for themselves. The only reason I assumed it was AA in the first place was because Modern Vintage Gamer said so.

The Retrotink uses Polyphase scaling which enables non-interger scaling to look even and crisp. Regardless, It’s not relevant to the issue at hand.

Edited August 15, 2023 by ChronicHedgehog