substituting original Xbox DVD drive with PC DVD drive?

[Tartarus]

Now you guys are getting me interested

[icanswim70]

5 minutes ago, Tartarus said:

Now you guys are getting me interested

Spread the word. Let’s get this done!

[Bowlsnapper]

12 hours ago, Tartarus said:

Now you guys are getting me interested

Then our mission is already partially accomplished.

360 drives have the advantage of being SATA as well. Does the firmware of the drive just make the discs filesystem available to the console and the console handles the rest? Would the fact that the drive can read 360 discs confuse the console at all?... or would it just make it possible for the OG to read 360 discs because the drive's firmware knows how to read them? 

 

RABBIT HOLE!

Edit; I don't think the 360 ever had any alternative, aftermarket drives discovered for it, so we would have to find a comparable drive with similar specs and chips from that time period. Somthing that shared a lot of the guts that were used for any of the 360 drives. And solder points would have to be found... assuming that a SATA drive could be wired the same way as an IDE and all the signals/functions are the same.

[icanswim70]

9 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said:

Then our mission is already partially accomplished.

360 drives have the advantage of being SATA as well. Does the firmware of the drive just make the discs filesystem available to the console and the console handles the rest? Would the fact that the drive can read 360 discs confuse the console at all?... or would it just make it possible for the OG to read 360 discs because the drive's firmware knows how to read them? 

 

RABBIT HOLE!

Edit; I don't think the 360 ever had any alternative, aftermarket drives discovered for it, so we would have to find a comparable drive with similar specs and chips from that time period. Somthing that shared a lot of the guts that were used for any of the 360 drives. And solder points would have to be found... assuming that a SATA drive could be wired the same way as an IDE and all the signals/functions are the same.

My thinking is if we have a legitimate 360 drive, we should use it. Most number of authentic parts. We have the firmware, and we know 360 can already read some OG Discs. I was researching yesterday about how backwards compatibility works as my thinking is we can exploit that in the firmware and “trick” the DVD drive into thinking all OG games are backwards compatible. I’m away from my computer at the moment but I’m gunna dissect the firmware best I can to see how the backwards compatibility works. I’m not sure if it’s a “list” built into the firmware or a series of unique identifiers for each game, or some other sequence that can be changed. Once that’s figured, I’m thinking it’s fairly straightforward to find like you say, the solder points for IDE conversion, hook it up, and away we go. BEST FLIPPING PART? Replacement lasers are EVERYWHERE

[sweetdarkdestiny]

I don't think that there is a "list" in the firmware at all. The drive probably just detects the OGXBox DVD and sends that info to the 360 and then the 360 decides to run that game or not. Remember that the 360 has a compatibility partition for that (A hecked version of a patch for the compatibility mod can downloaded on the interweb).

So the only plus is that the drive can detect/read the OGXBox DVD's.

 

 

[icanswim70]

17 minutes ago, sweetdarkdestiny said:

I don't think that there is a "list" in the firmware at all. The drive probably just detects the OGXBox DVD and sends that info to the 360 and then the 360 decides to run that game or not. Remember that the 360 has a compatibility partition for that (A hecked version of a patch for the compatibility mod can downloaded on the interweb).

So the only plus is that the drive can detect/read the OGXBox DVD's.

 

 

On that logic, shouldn’t a simple rewire work then? Or as I’ve said, a sata to ide adapter. If the detection already happens, sending that into to the OG Xbox should theoretically work… after flashing the number locking the drive to its partner..

[icanswim70]

My other theoretical while I’m thinking about it: flashing a 360 DVD drive with the OG Firmware.

[sweetdarkdestiny]

5 minutes ago, icanswim70 said:

My other theoretical while I’m thinking about it: flashing a 360 DVD drive with the OG Firmware.

That will not work. You need to write a almost hole new firmware from almost scratch for the drive. And even you find a coder who has the skill and will to do it, he would need all versions of 360 drives and consoles as well as a ogxbox and a lifetime support on free coffee and a shit load of time. I realy like the idea but it would basicly take an @Prehistoricman who not take an no as an answer and that took what, round about 20 years?

Anyway. The only valid reason for a DVD drive is softmodding and easy TSOP flashing. That being said it would much more useful to have something like a raspbarrypi which could be used to accomplish that by hooking it up to the IDE cable and do all that on there own when powering on the xbox (of which im 99% certain that this will also not be possible).

Bottom line: Before a SATA DVD drive becomes available for the OGXBox, little me writes propper english (which will probably never happen (at least in this universe)).  

 

 

[icanswim70]

1 hour ago, sweetdarkdestiny said:

That will not work. You need to write a almost hole new firmware from almost scratch for the drive. And even you find a coder who has the skill and will to do it, he would need all versions of 360 drives and consoles as well as a ogxbox and a lifetime support on free coffee and a shit load of time. I realy like the idea but it would basicly take an @Prehistoricman who not take an no as an answer and that took what, round about 20 years?

Anyway. The only valid reason for a DVD drive is softmodding and easy TSOP flashing. That being said it would much more useful to have something like a raspbarrypi which could be used to accomplish that by hooking it up to the IDE cable and do all that on there own when powering on the xbox (of which im 99% certain that this will also not be possible).

Bottom line: Before a SATA DVD drive becomes available for the OGXBox, little me writes propper english (which will probably never happen (at least in this universe)).  

 

 

Next thought. Modifying the 360 OS to include all OG titles. It seems our best bet is using the 360 drive. 

[sweetdarkdestiny]

Will also not happen. The 360 scene wasn't never that active like they was on the OGXBox - at least from what I know. There are just a handfull of users left like Octal450 (Josh) or 15432 (Aka Alex) who are knowledgeable enough to say if something like this would be possible at all.

And there would be also no benefit for the OGXBox which was your initial thought. And if it would be possible M$ would have done that already but there are games where it's simply not realy possible. M$ also removed some games from the compatibility list because they are not able to fix the problems which some games had. Also take in account that the OGXBox is a x86 system and the 360 is a PPC system.

I personaly see no real use for me using a DVD drive. But like I wrote above, a more or less "simple" raspi "ODE" mod for not so skilled users would be something nice to just flash a TSOP or softmod a XBox (Problem is for both you need to run a supportet game which needs a dvd drive as you know).

But on the other hand you can get a cheap mod or just a LF49020 chip and exploid your XBox that way. So I think that everyone with enough skill to make an ODE posible for the purpose mentioned above would say, get a mod chip and use FatXplorer. It's basily not worth the time, effort and money - I guess. (Except there is someone who just want to make it happend because he/she can do it (you never know)).

[icanswim70]

22 minutes ago, sweetdarkdestiny said:

Will also not happen. The 360 scene wasn't never that active like they was on the OGXBox - at least from what I know. There are just a handfull of users left like Octal450 (Josh) or 15432 (Aka Alex) who are knowledgeable enough to say if something like this would be possible at all.

And there would be also no benefit for the OGXBox which was your initial thought. And if it would be possible M$ would have done that already but there are games where it's simply not realy possible. M$ also removed some games from the compatibility list because they are not able to fix the problems which some games had. Also take in account that the OGXBox is a x86 system and the 360 is a PPC system.

I personaly see no real use for me using a DVD drive. But like I wrote above, a more or less "simple" raspi "ODE" mod for not so skilled users would be something nice to just flash a TSOP or softmod a XBox (Problem is for both you need to run a supportet game which needs a dvd drive as you know).

But on the other hand you can get a cheap mod or just a LF49020 chip and exploid your XBox that way. So I think that everyone with enough skill to make an ODE posible for the purpose mentioned above would say, get a mod chip and use FatXplorer. It's basily not worth the time, effort and money - I guess. (Except there is someone who just want to make it happend because he/she can do it (you never know)).

Getting back to the task here. I’m not really looking to discuss modchips, they already exist and are well documented and most can figure it out. The entirety of this is to find a way to play legitimate OG Game discs. The 2 candidates I’m thinking could work are the 360 drive, and my original thought of a brand new dvd drive from on of the big 3, wired and flashed. We have the flash, using the wiring knowledge we have, I’m still leaning towards this scenario. Since mechanically drives are pretty similar, finding the solder points for the power connector and the SATA problem is where my brain is going… 
 

Maybe a simple modchip can be created to bridge the gap between sata and ide to avoid breaking it… or this is where a pi controller could be coded to bridge the gap?

Edited February 14, 2023 by icanswim70

[Prehistoricman]

I have been looking and thinking about this topic @sweetdarkdestiny

I basically repeated what others have done with PC drives and got some random LG drive to load DVDs and game copies but not original discs. I took a brief look at the original and hacked drive firmware images and decided to save myself the pain of looking at it further.

The problem for me, someone who doesn't have experience with drive firmware, is that the system is totally unknown and hard to probe. The main DVD drive chip from MediaTek doesn't have public documentation. I don't think we've had any source code leaks related to the Xbox DVD drives so that's a dead end too. It's possible to reverse-engineer almost anything but the effort that takes on this level could be hundreds of hours depending on the hacker's experience.

A close example to me is the TMS57070, a digital audio processor chip from the 90s that was also 100% undocumented. I spent around 400 hours investigating and got a very good understanding of it over a span of 3 or 4 years https://github.com/Prehistoricman/TMS57070. If I could be sufficiently motivated, then I suppose I could do the same for the DVD drives.

There are still people in the scene with a decent base knowledge of the drives, so not all hope is lost. But screaming into the void YEAH LET'S DO THIS won't get the hard work done. Sorry to be a pessimist

Edited February 14, 2023 by Prehistoricman

[icanswim70]

12 minutes ago, Prehistoricman said:

I have been looking and thinking about this topic @sweetdarkdestiny

I basically repeated what others have done with PC drives and got some random LG drive to load DVDs and game copies but not original discs. I took a brief look at the original and hacked drive firmware images and decided to save myself the pain of looking at it further.

The problem for me, someone who doesn't have experience with drive firmware, is that the system is totally unknown and hard to probe. The main DVD drive chip from MediaTek doesn't have public documentation. I don't think we've had any source code leaks related to the Xbox DVD drives so that's a dead end too. It's possible to reverse-engineer almost anything but the effort that takes on this level could be hundreds of hours depending on the hacker's experience.

A close example to me is the TMS57070, a digital audio processor chip from the 90s that was also 100% undocumented. I spent around 400 hours investigating and got a very good understanding of it over a span of 3 or 4 years https://github.com/Prehistoricman/TMS57070. If I could be sufficiently motivated, then I suppose I could do the same for the DVD drives.

There are still people in the scene with a decent base knowledge of the drives, so not all hope is lost. But screaming into the void YEAH LET'S DO THIS won't get the hard work done. Sorry to be a pessimist

I’ll jump at whatever project you invision. I suspect this will take awhile either way. I’m willing to assist anyone anyway possible, but I need more than just me (and @Bowlsnapper lol). Instead of shutting down possibilities we need to be brainstorming ideas like I’m trying and get a plan in place. I can rip drives apart, clean them, reassemble, and repeat till the sun sets, but with more brains attacking this, we can get a possible solution started, whether thats reverse engineering, rewiring, modding, etc. Reverse engineering would take constant communication so I’d suggest if a group is willing, we put together a chat somewhere and start working. 

[sweetdarkdestiny]

38 minutes ago, icanswim70 said:

....

Well, I apologies for bursting bubble after bubble but face reality. I did not say that it isn't possible, you just need to find that one man/woman who is able and willing to pull this of just because he/she can and just for the fun of it. And that is the major problem here.

You may have more luck in the XBox discord since there are more of the guy's/girl's who can do and/or have at least more infos on how you can or can not do it. You need 1: ppl with knowledge from the 360 scene as well as 2: ppl from the OG scene and join them for a project like this. Or you pay an engineer who then can do it as a full time job.

What you plan is a huge project which didn't pay of at all. However, it's super nice nerd stuff and I would like to see it happen but I highly doubt it.

And one thing more. This topic has round about 600 clicks. I bet my ass that some ppl with huge knowldge have read this topic but no one has made a post. And without looking at your sub reddit I would say, that there is also no good post that takes the project a step further.

So if I were you, I would start a request on the xbox discord channel (if not already done).

And again, sry for bursting a bubble or meybe being rude in anyway. It's not my intention.

[icanswim70]

48 minutes ago, sweetdarkdestiny said:

Well, I apologies for bursting bubble after bubble but face reality. I did not say that it isn't possible, you just need to find that one man/woman who is able and willing to pull this of just because he/she can and just for the fun of it. And that is the major problem here.

You may have more luck in the XBox discord since there are more of the guy's/girl's who can do and/or have at least more infos on how you can or can not do it. You need 1: ppl with knowledge from the 360 scene as well as 2: ppl from the OG scene and join them for a project like this. Or you pay an engineer who then can do it as a full time job.

What you plan is a huge project which didn't pay of at all. However, it's super nice nerd stuff and I would like to see it happen but I highly doubt it.

And one thing more. This topic has round about 600 clicks. I bet my ass that some ppl with huge knowldge have read this topic but no one has made a post. And without looking at your sub reddit I would say, that there is also no good post that takes the project a step further.

So if I were you, I would start a request on the xbox discord channel (if not already done).

And again, sry for bursting a bubble or meybe being rude in anyway. It's not my intention.

Nothing gets done with a closed mind. I’m gunna keep going and posting here, and hop on discord and something will happen. You should know, I seldom get support in what I do. If you haven’t guessed, I literally can swim; I was the number 1 swimmer in North America in my race for over a decade. Every coach doubted me till I broke records and brought home medals. Thanks for the support

 

I still think tweaking a new drive or a 360 drive is the best way. SATA to IDE Conversion and matching wiring on a new drive are the main problems I see. The firmware is already available for download and trial. If it’s not known yet if it works, how can it be disproven? 

 

[sweetdarkdestiny]

Well, I don't say it's impossible or can't be done. And I'm not closed minded. But I also do not close my eyes and see downsides which you may should consider as well to avoid running blind in one direction. There is also the point that the work puting into a project needs match the use (Hope that makes any seens). So if you put 1, 2, 3 years of work into a project for 50 ppl. that makes not much seens other than you have proven that it is possible. 

Consider that you can get the 4 PC drives and for at least 2 of them you can get new lasers and one of them can read OGXBox games. 

So maybe, just maybe, it is smarter to work on an SD Card based ODE thing which will work on a retail xbox. As a baseline I would say that you have just one game on the card which boots right away when powering on the XBox. This would also eleminate the fact that all DVD's will die soner or later. 

Anyway, I repect what you try to do and I wish you luck for it but it takes more than just an idea.  

[icanswim70]

Another idea I saw on Reddit is using an external dvd drive. This seems more complicated though.

 

Perhaps soft modding the console before the swap could allow further compatibility? As long as the finished product can read OG Discs.

Edited February 15, 2023 by icanswim70

[sweetdarkdestiny]

1 hour ago, icanswim70 said:

Another idea I saw on Reddit is using an external dvd drive. This seems more complicated though.

Still comes down to the drive firmware and where to connect it, to usb? (Not possible (didn't even work with an HDD).

1 hour ago, icanswim70 said:

Perhaps soft modding the console before the swap could allow further compatibility? As long as the finished product can read OG Discs.

Didn't even works with a modchip. Reason is the same as above, DVD firmware (except for the 8163b which can do it (not even to sure why)).

You need a skilled coder for a drive firmware in the first place which also means that you have to reverse engineering the xbox dvd firmware and the firmware of the 360 drive (or which ever drive you plan to use) ect. pp.. Thats the point you need to start.  From there you do/plan the next steps.

Edited February 15, 2023 by sweetdarkdestiny

[icanswim70]

1 hour ago, sweetdarkdestiny said:

Still comes down to the drive firmware and where to connect it, to usb? (Not possible (didn't even work with an HDD).

Didn't even works with a modchip. Reason is the same as above, DVD firmware (except for the 8163b which can do it (not even to sure why)).

You need a skilled coder for a drive firmware in the first place which also means that you have to reverse engineering the xbox dvd firmware and the firmware of the 360 drive (or which ever drive you plan to use) ect. pp.. Thats the point you need to start.  From there you do/plan the next steps.

Modern DVD drives (e.g. a laptop's) work on a softmodded Xbox. Just found out.

###Context

Why do I think this is significant? For a while now, I've been curious on how to **future-proof an Xbox (without hardmod)** if ever the Xbox's original DVD drive stops working. I've tried a [no DVD drive hack](https://www.reddit.com/r/originalxbox/comments/6z5b6k/run_xbox_wo_dvd_drive/) to no avail. Using a modern DVD drive is probably the closest to a solution (for now). There are plenty and people likely have one already.

It worked on my Xbox which had [Rocky5's Xbox Softmodding Tool](https://github.com/Rocky5/Xbox-Softmodding-Tool) with Dual-Boot Disabled. No error 12.

Probably works on stock Xbox too in which case you can use XboxHDM to install a softmod.

###Materials

I used an Internal Slim DVD Drive (detached from my laptop) + [Slimline SATA to SATA adapter](https://www.amazon.ca/StarTech-com-SLSATAADAP6-6-Inch-Slimline-Adapter/dp/B009JXKQ9O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507813083&sr=8-1&keywords=slimline+sata+to+sata) + [SATA to IDE adapter](http://www.ebay.ca/itm/PATA-IDE-to-SATA-Converter-Adapter-for-3-5-HDD-DVD-LW-/182304258329?hash=item2a722e3919:g:6usAAOSwTA9X9dIz) (as a Slave). I powered it up using [Molex Y Splitter](http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Universal-4-Pin-IDE-1-to-2-Power-Supply-Y-Splitter-Extension-Cable-20cm/202036593293?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20170831090034%26meid%3Dbc6d82b955cd4c46bdf019f5b9c4ac27%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D181654798556&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851) attached to the Xbox's power connector.

###Things To Consider

**Boots w/o DVD power cable:** Xbox was able to boot without having to plug the Xbox's DVD power cable to anything. This is interesting because it means the Xbox uses the IDE connector--not the DVD connector--to prevent an error 12.

**Boots a burned disc:** It launched HeXEn 2017 on boot. Sidenote, I was able to burn this copy using the same DVD drive + SlimSATA to SATA adapter + USB to SATA/IDE adapter.

**Prevent freeze via DVD pin hack:** Anything that interacts with the DVD drive or D partition (e.g. XBMC's features, HeXEn 2017's features) will freeze the Xbox up unless you hack the DVD connector pins. 

I used this [pinout diagram of the DVD power cable's header](https://www.xbmc4xbox.org.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=58&mode=view) to help me. You can also use the [DVD connector directly on the motherboard.](http://brandonw.net/consoles/xbox/dvd.jpg) I then used jumper wires, resistors, and electrical tape:

* Wire (+ 20K Ohm resistor) for Grounding--GND (Pin 12)
* Wire (+ 10K Ohm resistor) for Power--5V->3.3V (Pin 10)
* Wire to manipulate DVD status--TRAY_IN (Pin 7)
* Wire to manipulate DVD status--CD_READY (Pin 6)

I soldered the free-end of all four wires together, taped exposed wires, then poked their other ends into their corresponding pinholes in  the DVD power cable's header. [More info here](https://www.reddit.com/r/originalxbox/comments/6z5b6k/run_xbox_wo_dvd_drive/dmthmpj/) thanks to /u/KaosEngineeer .

You can play around with the two status wires by poking them into the other status pins (SER_DATA, TRAY_OUT, or NEJECT). It's not very useful though and only Pin 6 & 7 prevents the freezing. You can attach more status wires if you want to further experiment. Also, contrary to the first pinout diagram, you don't need to wire the other inactive status pins to ground.

###Cheap Alternative

**DVD PCB:** If you don't need to read discs, but just want to bypass the initial DVD check, consider just buying a working DVD PCB (with an IDE or SATA interface).

###TL;DR

 Xbox DVD drive stopped working? No problem. Just use a spare one from your laptop or PC.

 

*Direct Copy from Reddit User*
 

Thats why I’m persistent 

[Tartarus]

Sooner or later something's going to happen

[sweetdarkdestiny]

23 minutes ago, icanswim70 said:

to much text

Every IDE drive works on the XBox. Every. And or the yellow wire just search for the right points.

Maybe an SATA adapter works on 1 or 2 drives (guess one with Panasonic (it was I belive) conroller (like in the LG`s).

You talk about original games on a "hacked" drive. Again, that comes down to firmware lvl and needs to understand what the og xbox dvd drive does, what the xbox does and so on. Then rewrite a firmware or create something like an adapter board which then holds a firmware to translate I/O.

So your post offers nothing new for your own topic. And I think I should stop because I'm tired of saying you need a firmware to make dreams come true.

I'm out here.....

[big F]

This does seem a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel but arguing over what colour to paint it.

[icanswim70]

33 minutes ago, big F said:

This does seem a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel but arguing over what colour to paint it.

Bingo. Someone is already successfully wiring and installing a sata drive into the console. I personally think we’re a couple wires away. There isn’t a need to reinvent the wheel.

[MadMartigan]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:42 PM, icanswim70 said:

Next thought. Modifying the 360 OS to include all OG titles. It seems our best bet is using the 360 drive. 

Hasn’t Xenia already accomplished this feat? I feel like I saw where it now has full compatibility 

[icanswim70]

As prices of the parts I’m using have soared, I’m now trying to think broader. I just posted about it in my Reddit community, and the gears are turning again. A very brief google revealed most lasers die due to a diode. Why not rip apart the laser, fix the problem and get back to gaming?

Edited May 11, 2023 by icanswim70