Bowlsnapper Posted January 1, 2022 Report Share Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) I'm planning to order some boards from Lukas and performing this mod on my main box and a couple other ones, but I have some questions that I need answers to and I don't want to annoy him with this stuff. If you guys would be willing to offer some advice, I would really, really appreciate it. -What is the best way to "ball" the underside of the interposer? Do I just have to organize the solder balls by hand, without a stencil or anything? That will be tedious as fuck. -When preparing to solder the CPU to the interposer, Lukas' github instructions say to "flux" every pad individually, but I think he means "tin" them? Otherwise the CPU pins will have nothing to bond to! Can anybody clarify this? Also, (and I wasn't able to find anything helpful with a google search about this) am I going to have a problem soldering the CPU to the interposer without ruining the bond I've established between the interposer and the board? Or the components (caps, etc.,) I've soldered to the interposer? I don't want to reheat everything I've already soldered if I can avoid it... -What is the best way to align the interposer to the board? Do I have to just eyeball it and see that the interposer balls are lining up with the pads on the mobo? If so, then god DAMN.... -How do I hook up a #STPCLK switch to the VCC/GND leads? -Lukas has already recommended a good rework station that I will pick up in 3-4 weeks or so, but does anybody have recommendations for a soldering iron/station? Maybe some sort of kit that comes with everything I will need for this project? In fact, what WILL I need for this project? I only have a few tools in mind that I'm sure of so far. I have basic soldering skills. Modchip installs are cake. But this is a huge step up from soldering a friggin' pin header and some random wires. -Could I theoretically use XBoverclock to push this CPU even higher? Maybe to 1.6Ghz? I am seriously overwhelmed here. I will have no problem being able to do this once I know where to start and gain some momentum. I learn things pretty fast and am pretty coordinated. I thought about maybe starting on some RROD 360s or something and then moving on to this after that. Once I set my mind to something, I do it, whether I succeed or fail. So I will not be swayed by anybody saying, "Dude, I think you probably shouldn't bother. You're in over your head." Yes, I'm afraid of fucking up, but I know for a fact that I want to do this. It will give me immense satisfaction knowing I was able to pull this off. I need help though! Once I get 3 done, I will order more interposers and start upgrading boxes regularly, along with extra ram and the MakeMHZ Xbox HDMI. Hopefully I can start selling them to people for a non-rip-off price, because I know people want this done and it would make me really happy to be able to make it a reality for people without them having to spend 1,500 bucks on ebay. I love the OG Xbox and I want to be a useful contributor to the scene! Can you guys please give me some advice? I suppose this is a step in the right direction? http://www.easybga.com/en/supply-bga-reballing-kit_l101_p9.html Edited January 1, 2022 by Bowlsnapper Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherwoman Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 As someone who just received a few of his boards and is just getting into BGA rework, I understand where you're coming from. Before I start rambling, you should watch a few videos like this: That will give you a good overview of what you're in for when starting a mod like this. Keep in mind the mod will actually be a little more complicated than this, since you need to desolder the old CPU, solder down the interposer, and then solder down the new CPU. And then do all the surface mount components... Anyway I'll try to answer some of your questions: What is the best way to "ball" the underside of the interposer? See video, but basically you'll need a stencil that matches (ish) the bottom of the interposer, and one that matches the CPU. Something like this should cover your bases. That particular kit is probably overkill, but there's bound to be one close enough in that pile. You could probably find a more appropriate pack and save some money. When preparing to solder the CPU to the interposer, Lukas' github instructions say to "flux" every pad individually, but I think he means "tin" them? See video, but TL;DR you should flux before you tin to keep solder balling predictably and sticking to pads and not other solder. What is the best way to align the interposer to the board? Basically by eye, usually you use the silkscreen outline on the motherboard to align the corners. I haven't gotten this far yet, but I would guess you align the corner closest to the CPU pads on the motherboard side and get it looking as reasonable as you can before you reheat the CPU to solder it down. How do I hook up a #STPCLK switch to the VCC/GND leads? If I'm understanding correctly, to cut CPU performance in half you connect the VCC/GND pins as described on the Github page. So, you should just need a switch to break the connection of the VCC line to allow you to toggle between 100/50% mode. Lukas has already recommended a good rework station that I will pick up in 3-4 weeks or so, but does anybody have recommendations for a soldering iron/station? Maybe some sort of kit that comes with everything I will need for this project? In fact, what WILL I need for this project? I have a basic Weller setup like this, but the sky is the limit here and just depends on what you're comfortable with. A rough list for this project would be something like: Reasonable soldering iron setup Hot air or BGA rework station Solder and flux paste Isopropyl alcohol Good pair of very narrow tweezers for picking/placing SMD components and manual BGA ball alignment Roll of desoldering wick .76mm solder balls Appropriate BGA stencils that match the interposer and CPU All of the SMD components listed on his Github page (this has been the killer for me) Compatible CPU Maybe optional: magnifying setup of some variety, depends on how good your eyes are... I'm not aware of a kit for something like this, but let me know if you find one. Could I theoretically use XBoverclock to push this CPU even higher? Maybe to 1.6Ghz? I haven't done a lot of research into this, but maybe. Cooling is one thing, but without the ability to easily tweak voltages its going to be tough to keep the system stable. Also some quick reading seems to indicate changing the FSB speed quickly destabilizes the system. You might want to open up a separate thread for this specifically just to see how far people have gone with XBoverclock. I'm also curious... Anyway, hope that helps! Curious to see how you get on, and I'll let you know how it goes for me. The lead times on some of the SMD components are insane, so I'm not sure when I'll manage to finish this honestly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaosEngineer Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 On 12/31/2021 at 8:46 PM, Bowlsnapper said: -How do I hook up a #STPCLK switch to the VCC/GND leads? I believe you do so with a pull-up resistor and a SPST switch. I need to find a copy of the CPU's user manual to verify. pull-up resistor SPST Switch / +Vcc --------\/\/\/\/\/---------+-------o/ o------------ GND CMOS 10 KOhm | | to #STPCLK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted February 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, preacherwoman said: As someone who just received a few of his boards and is just getting into BGA rework, I understand where you're coming from. Before I start rambling, you should watch a few videos like this: That will give you a good overview of what you're in for when starting a mod like this. Keep in mind the mod will actually be a little more complicated than this, since you need to desolder the old CPU, solder down the interposer, and then solder down the new CPU. And then do all the surface mount components... Anyway I'll try to answer some of your questions: What is the best way to "ball" the underside of the interposer? See video, but basically you'll need a stencil that matches (ish) the bottom of the interposer, and one that matches the CPU. Something like this should cover your bases. That particular kit is probably overkill, but there's bound to be one close enough in that pile. You could probably find a more appropriate pack and save some money. When preparing to solder the CPU to the interposer, Lukas' github instructions say to "flux" every pad individually, but I think he means "tin" them? See video, but TL;DR you should flux before you tin to keep solder balling predictably and sticking to pads and not other solder. What is the best way to align the interposer to the board? Basically by eye, usually you use the silkscreen outline on the motherboard to align the corners. I haven't gotten this far yet, but I would guess you align the corner closest to the CPU pads on the motherboard side and get it looking as reasonable as you can before you reheat the CPU to solder it down. How do I hook up a #STPCLK switch to the VCC/GND leads? If I'm understanding correctly, to cut CPU performance in half you connect the VCC/GND pins as described on the Github page. So, you should just need a switch to break the connection of the VCC line to allow you to toggle between 100/50% mode. Lukas has already recommended a good rework station that I will pick up in 3-4 weeks or so, but does anybody have recommendations for a soldering iron/station? Maybe some sort of kit that comes with everything I will need for this project? In fact, what WILL I need for this project? I have a basic Weller setup like this, but the sky is the limit here and just depends on what you're comfortable with. A rough list for this project would be something like: Reasonable soldering iron setup Hot air or BGA rework station Solder and flux paste Isopropyl alcohol Good pair of very narrow tweezers for picking/placing SMD components and manual BGA ball alignment Roll of desoldering wick .76mm solder balls Appropriate BGA stencils that match the interposer and CPU All of the SMD components listed on his Github page (this has been the killer for me) Compatible CPU Maybe optional: magnifying setup of some variety, depends on how good your eyes are... I'm not aware of a kit for something like this, but let me know if you find one. Could I theoretically use XBoverclock to push this CPU even higher? Maybe to 1.6Ghz? I haven't done a lot of research into this, but maybe. Cooling is one thing, but without the ability to easily tweak voltages its going to be tough to keep the system stable. Also some quick reading seems to indicate changing the FSB speed quickly destabilizes the system. You might want to open up a separate thread for this specifically just to see how far people have gone with XBoverclock. I'm also curious... Anyway, hope that helps! Curious to see how you get on, and I'll let you know how it goes for me. The lead times on some of the SMD components are insane, so I'm not sure when I'll manage to finish this honestly... Thank you very much for the pointers! I did get some info from n64freak about a couple of things though: -The best way to solder the CPU pins to the interposer is by using low-temperature solder paste. Solder paste (not to be confused with pure flux paste) is a flux paste with microscopic solder balls suspended in it. You can apply to the interposer pads and then put the CPU down onto it, dipping the pins into the balls of liquid paste. When heated, the solder balls bond into one mass and then cool into shape. Because it melts at a much lower temperature than typical solder (about 175C), you can heat and flow it without worrying about compromising the bga (which I think is soldered at about 240C) or SMD joints. -He's had consistent success pushing to 1.52ghz. From my basic calculations, (1.52ghz ÷ 10.5 multiplier) that would require a 145mhz fsb. The CPU voltage won't be the limiting factor, it'll be the memory. That's what causes lockups. I've read that certain versions of the RAM will clock higher than others, but they should all be able to tolerate 145mhz. However, I would have two bioses on hand - one at 145mhz fsb for pushing to 1.52ghz, and one at the stock 133mhz fsb for being able to use the #CLKSTP switch and play timing sensitive Xbox games. I would say the boosted bios should be used for emulation and 720p xbe files. Now, what is the best way to secure the stencil to the interposer? The bga stencil frames/housings are designed to hold CPU and GPU dies, not interposers. What should I do about that? The SMD components are killer? You mean there's just a lot of different values to keep track of? Lead times? You lost me there. Edited February 7, 2022 by Bowlsnapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted February 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 49 minutes ago, KaosEngineer said: I believe you do so with a pull-up resistor and a SPST switch. I need to find a copy of the CPU's user manual to verify. pull-up resistor SPST Switch / +Vcc --------\/\/\/\/\/---------+-------o/ o------------ GND CMOS 10 KOhm | | to #STPCLK Hmmm. I'm kind of a dumbass, Kaos. If you're willing to spend the time if or when you have it, could you find a pic of the CPU area of the motherboard with the interposer attached and kinda draw that out point to point and lay it out for me? A direct visual would be super helpful! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekule Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 11 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said: Hmmm. I'm kind of a dumbass, Kaos. If you're willing to spend the time if or when you have it, could you find a pic of the CPU area of the motherboard with the interposer attached and kinda draw that out point to point and lay it out for me? A direct visual would be super helpful! NO... NO... NO.... its more complicated than that, but it was all incorporated into the friendtech interposer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekule Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) This circuit handles the stpclk, the switch is the top left s2b plug Edited February 7, 2022 by Kekule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherwoman Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 11 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said: The best way to solder the CPU pins to the interposer is by using low-temperature solder paste. Interesting, thanks for passing that along. 11 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said: He's had consistent success pushing to 1.52ghz. Decent boost. Wonder if there's anything that can be done to increase RAM stability at higher clocks... 11 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said: Now, what is the best way to secure the stencil to the interposer? The bga stencil frames/housings are designed to hold CPU and GPU dies, not interposers. What should I do about that? Something like this or this might work. The interposer board is 50mm x 60mm if that helps. Balling the CPU-side of the interposer should be easy since the CPU aligns with the edges of the board, meaning the first one I linked should work fine. However, the other side will be more challenging since its offset a bit. You might have to get creative and use metal clips of some sort. Whatever fits and can handle getting hot without deforming too much. 11 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said: The SMD components are killer? You mean there's just a lot of different values to keep track of? Lead times? You lost me there. Some of the required components listed here are obsolete / no longer manufactured, or out of stock with insane manufacturing delays for new shipments. Specifically NC7SZ32M5X, NC7WZ07P6X, and SG-3030JC 32.7680KB0: ROHS are the hard ones to find. It looks like these are available on eBay at massively inflated costs if you want to go that route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherwoman Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 18 minutes ago, Kekule said: NO... NO... NO.... its more complicated than that, but it was all incorporated into the friendtech interposer I think the circuit you mentioned is incorporated into the interposer board we're using: https://github.com/N64-Freak/Xbox-CPU-interposer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekule Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, preacherwoman said: I think the circuit you mentioned is incorporated into the interposer board we're using: https://github.com/N64-Freak/Xbox-CPU-interposer yes it is... all boards that ever existed come directly from the friendtech design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted February 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 10 hours ago, Kekule said: This circuit handles the stpclk, the switch is the top left s2b plug Thank you mister Kekule! My electronics/circuitry knowledge is painfully and shamefully limited but I will make use of this. If anybody is able to decipher this for me in an idiot proof way (like, "This contact gets wired to this one, dumbass") I would be very appreciative. If I can get this process down then I can start building 1.4ghz 128mb systems and selling them to you guys, since this does seem to be a lost art. So if anybody here can help me to do that more quickly and easily, I hope to pass the benefits along and provide a useful and desired service for the community. Plus it would be a lot of fun to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted February 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, preacherwoman said: Interesting, thanks for passing that along. Decent boost. Wonder if there's anything that can be done to increase RAM stability at higher clocks... Something like this or this might work. The interposer board is 50mm x 60mm if that helps. Balling the CPU-side of the interposer should be easy since the CPU aligns with the edges of the board, meaning the first one I linked should work fine. However, the other side will be more challenging since its offset a bit. You might have to get creative and use metal clips of some sort. Whatever fits and can handle getting hot without deforming too much. Some of the required components listed here are obsolete / no longer manufactured, or out of stock with insane manufacturing delays for new shipments. Specifically NC7SZ32M5X, NC7WZ07P6X, and SG-3030JC 32.7680KB0: ROHS are the hard ones to find. It looks like these are available on eBay at massively inflated costs if you want to go that route. I don't understand. How the hell do SMD components get discontinued? Are they just getting smaller now and the ones required for the interposer PCB design are becoming outdated technology? This is something that I've wanted to do for a while now, so if I have to buy at overinflated prices then that's what I'll do. Are they all available, regardless of price? As far as pushing the memory, from what I understand, those chips are already factory reject quality. Like, they couldn't be sold to the public for some reason, so MS had a deal to pick those up. In fact, I think they're clocked UNDER the intended spec. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that. There are like 5-7 revisions, denoted by one character. But they do not tolerate being pushed very hard. And because it's substandard, imperfect memory, different consoles have had different maximum thresholds. Luck of the draw. However, I've yet to see an XBOverlock at 145mhz fsb that wasn't tolerated, although I would believe it has happened. I'm no expert, by any means. Thanks for the stencil frame recommendations. Those look like they would work just fine. Edited February 8, 2022 by Bowlsnapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaosEngineer Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 23 hours ago, Bowlsnapper said: Hmmm. I'm kind of a dumbass, Kaos. If you're willing to spend the time if or when you have it, could you find a pic of the CPU area of the motherboard with the interposer attached and kinda draw that out point to point and lay it out for me? A direct visual would be super helpful! From Kekule's post, it's a bit more complex to generate the STPCLK# signal that connects to the processor. The switch configuration I show is only a small fraction of the circuit in the upper left-hand side of the schematic he posted. The SPST (single-pole single-through) switch connects to the interposer via a 2-pin JST connector - part number S2B-ZR-SM4A-TF(LF)(SN). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted February 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 1 minute ago, KaosEngineer said: From Kekule's post, it involves a a bit more to generate the STPCLK# signal that connects to the processor. The switch configuration I show is only a small fraction of the circuit in the upper left-hand side of the schematic he posted. The SPST (single-pole single-through) switch connects to the interposer via a 2-pin JST connector - part number S2B-ZR-SM4A-TF(LF)(SN). Thank you very much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted August 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 I forgot about this thread LOT of good information here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlsnapper Posted September 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2023 So I need to know: I was looking at the ACHI 6500 as part of the kit to help me install CPUs, but there is still a lot of gambling. I need to know: What should I buy that would help eliminate the gamble and would help ensure that it is successful the FIRST time, first with slot processors, then with interposers. I don't want to waste money on processors and motherboards with unsuccessful installs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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